Tim Maroney ([info]tim_maroney) wrote,
@ 2003-03-26 19:34:00
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notes of a skeptical thelemite
In response to several interesting questions from [info]mendaxveritas, I set down in epistolary and Socratic form some of my thoughts on interpreting Crowley's work in a skeptical but praxis-oriented light. I've copied some of the dialog here for my own future reference. These notes are not an essay, but may someday form the basis of one.

1. What does Thelema mean to you?

    7. A history of events and a collection of artistic and academic works. (Thanks to [info]ecosystem.)

2. What does True Will mean to you?

    7. An unworkable metaphysical concept created by Crowley and not appearing in BotL.

4. What does Initiation mean to you?

    6. An experiential means of "charging" or empowering symbols for use in meditation and ritual.
    7. A social bonding process involving the creation of a new world-order and placement within it.
    8. A means of indoctrination by placing candidates in a receptive state and tying their social status to acceptance.

5. Is self-initiation possible?

    7. Not in the social or indoctrination sense, but in the experiential or "charging" sense, sure.
    8. Yes in every sense, if it's a self-initiation assigned by a group (see Pyramidos).

6. If someone is not yet an Adept, what do they really know?

    6. There's no such thing as an Adept. Crowley's system of degrees is a false system of psychology.
    7. Whatever they know. Adepthood means completely different things to different people.

7. What is the difference between "Aleister Crowley" and "The Master Therion"?

    6. That's a tough one. The difference between Crowley and V.V.V.V.V. is much easier to grasp.
1. I realized after posting that the first question was phrased incorrectly. It really ought to have been "What does it mean to be a Thelemite?"

Ah. That's very different. My definition of Thelemite is derived closely from Rabelais, omitting the term "well-bred."

7. If you find it easier to describe the relationship of "AC" to "VVVVV" than that of "AC" to "Therion", then by all means do so. Perhaps that is a better question.

V.V.V.V.V. was a voice in Crowley's head which was not identified with his conscious self. That much is clear from his unpublished journals. I am less clear on what Crowley meant by "The Master Therion" as a pseudonym. The Therion pieces unlike the V.V.V.V.V. pieces appear to be written by the conscious self rather than some right-brain poetry center. One approach to the question would be that the Therion voice was felt to be a combination of the conscious and unconscious voices.
I'm sure Rabelais doesn't mention Liber AL (for obvious reasons), so should I infer that you don't consider acceptance of Liber AL to be essential to the definition of a Thelemite?

Certainly not essential, and it can even be inimical. A Thelemite per Rabelais is someone whose sources of virtue are within themselves; he deliberately inverted the Christian idea that wisdom came from external sources in the Bible and the Church. If someone is a BotL-thumper then they may be relying excessively on an external source of received wisdom rather than on their own internal sources. If so, then the Rabelaisian definition would not apply.

I agree that AC did not identify VVVVV with his human personality, which I think is what you mean by "conscious self". I think AC would have said that as a Master of the Temple, VVVVV resided above the Abyss, and so by definition was not part of his ego.

That's a little more abstract that what I was trying to say. Crowley was conscious when V.V.V.V.V. was speaking. According to his journal from the time when he received that rapid-fire burst of Class A texts over a few months, he simply heard the voice and it gave him dictation. There were no trance phenomena; he was in his ordinary state of consciousness. One model of this curious process would be that V.V.V.V.V. was the voice of Wernicke's area, the right-hemisphere analogue of the ordinary left-hemisphere speech center, a la Julian Jaynes.

The same was true of Therion, but it is the Curse of the Magus that he must speak, knowing that he will be misunderstood; so he wrote as simply as possible, almost as a parent speaks to a toddler.

Perhaps. I don't know of any clear biographical data on the subject.

You... restrict your concept of initiation to "charging symbols", "social bonding", and brainwashing (I think that is a fair reduction of your third definition).

Indoctrination. Brainwashing is a different, albeit related, process.

[P]erhaps a better question is, what is it that you are looking for in Thelema if not initiation as AC defined it, according to the curriculum that he devised for individual attainment (i.e. the AA system)?

I'm not looking for anything in Thelema. As a Thelemite I am not dependent on others' received wisdom.

If you reject the model of the HGA as the True Self, do you also reject the model of the conscious ego as a false self, and of the crossing of the Abyss as the way to finally free oneself of that illusion?

Crowley didn't take Aiwass as his MT motto, so how would the HGA be the True Self?

All concepts of selfhood are illusory, as per Hume. The illusion of self is a product of neurological narrative, in which a massively parallel system creates a story about a unitary character that does not exist.

This is becoming an interesting discussion; you seem to reject so much of the core of what AC believed and taught that I wonder what it is about him and/or Thelema that attracts you.

Crowley was a talented creator with an unusual connection to aspects of his own unconscious mind. His work is to me a subjectively useful source of symbolic associations that I can weave into my own personal symbolic tapestry, and his rituals and meditations are enjoyable and fulfilling to perform, helping me tap into my own unconscious sources of wisdom. I'm by no means a follower of his system, though. It's obvious to me from the biographical data that his view of spiritual degrees consisted of force-fitting his personal experience into a traditional framework, and that he was willing to lie in order to make the fit to tradition look convincing to others. It's also clear that his methods were not effective for others, and that the methods he proposed for others were not what he practiced himself.



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[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-27 08:14 am UTC (link)
I don't want to put words in Tim's fingers here, but I think the "traditional framework" and "false pychology" to which he objected was more A.'.A.'. than O.T.O. The consequences of A.'.A.'. initiation for individual psychology are better-defined, and Crowley never really "worked the grades" of O.T.O., having joined at VII° and then specially promoted to X°.

Speaking for myself (and in partial contradiction of Tim's thesis, though I agree with most of his points), I derive the following benefits from O.T.O. initiation (not a comprehensive list):
  • Punctuation of life-experience with periodic ceremonies.
  • An opportunity to recieve, integrate, and transmit esoteric materials in a formal setting.
  • The challenge of personal discipline defined through ritual obligations.
  • Integration in a social system that combines strong egalitarianism within degrees and bodies, along with an elaborate heirarchy among them.

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[info]ecosystem
2003-03-26 10:52 pm UTC (link)
The illusion of self is a product of neurological narrative, in which a massively parallel system creates a story about a unitary character that does not exist.

This sentence makes me EXTREMELY happy, so now we're one for one. I don't know if I have ever seen this sentiment expressed with adequate vividness, while still managing to avoid passing positive or negative judgment upon the experience of individuated selfness. Right on.

The experience of having a self, on both a literal brain-activity level and on an existentialist identity-building level, is completely a product of human creativity. When I use the HGA idea at all, I generally conceive of it as being whatever part of my mind has the most direct control over the creation of the universe that I inhabit through my perception and engage through my will. For me "knowledge and conversation of the HGA" might mean having total control over and understanding of my own creative faculties.

While I suspect I am a bit more of an ecstatic, I relate to your approach to Thelema. From what you've written here, it seems that you are, like I am, a Thelemite by choice and appropriation as opposed to a Thelemite by mandate. Liber Legis is powerful to the extent that I can use it to evoke or vivify parts of myself, etc. There's a good chance I'll be taking my OTO Minerval soon, and I'd be interested in batting around ideas of initiation with you once I'm in.

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"Thelemite by mandate"
[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-27 12:36 pm UTC (link)
Where would such a strange chimera come from?

Whose mandate?

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Re: "Thelemite by mandate"
[info]ecosystem
2003-03-27 01:03 pm UTC (link)
I had a conversation once with somebody who conceived of "Thelemites" as being a group of chosen people (chosen by whom, I have no idea) who were, from birth, inherently Thelemites and would be revealed as such through ordeals and initiation. These "Thelemites," according to the guy I talked to, are obligated to take Liber Legis in entirety as a book of laws to which they must answer. Obviously, I do not share this interpretation.

A less extreme example of what I would consider a "Thelemite by mandate" idea: I have talked with people who consider the Law of Thelema to be objectively the correct standard of thought and conduct for the present time, the authority of which issues from any number of sources (Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Aiwass, Aleister Crowley, etc.). The idea that it is a FACT that we are all currently living in the Aeon of Horus, for which there are certain standards of ideal behavior and thought, often lends itself to the idea that the Law of Thelema is or should be binding upon all people, regardless of whether they know it or enter into it willingly. I've seen that as an interpretation of "The Law is for all." This is also NOT my interpretation.

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Re: "Thelemite by mandate"
[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-27 01:59 pm UTC (link)
First type: "Chosen" by Hadit, I suppose. What a funny sort of Thelemic Calvinism! (Or Zionism....)

Second type: I could be mistaken for one of these on my off days. After all, I sometimes use the motto Ignorantia Legis Neminem Excusat! But really, such people need to take a closer look at the Class A Comment. If "All questions of the Law are to be decided...each for himself," then it's only a matter of how effectively any individual might use the forbidden text in question to illuminate her own experience, and no one can "say nay" to the work or langour of another on this score.

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Re: "Thelemite by mandate"
[info]ecosystem
2003-03-27 03:54 pm UTC (link)
(Or Zionism....)

That's what I thought too.

If "All questions of the Law are to be decided...each for himself," then it's only a matter of how effectively any individual might use the forbidden text in question to illuminate her own experience

That brings up an interesting point. I wonder to what extent, if any, the Class A Comment says that study of the book is forbidden for the purpose of making it necessary for a person to break one of the "laws" of the book to even access the rest of the "laws." There's a certain sense in which I could read Liber Legis not as an explication of The Law, but as a challenge to and tweaking of the idea of law itself. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is already a reversal of what people generally think of when they hear the word "Law." This is compounded by the fact that the sentence appears within what is ostensibly a "book of law" (the conventional question would be, "If do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, what's the rest of this book doing here?"). The Class A comment piles paradox upon paradox. "Do what thou wilt" shall be the whole of the law, within a book of other laws, and the book is forbidden.

So basically, in order to enter the book at all, it's necessary to perform a radical act of will against part of the book (the Class A comment). The structure of the text is set up so that it is impossible to study it with perfect orthodoxy. Liber Legis really is a profound challenge to the ideas of orthodoxy, dogma, and law, on all accounts.

Thanks for nudging my brain.

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a periphery of my pestilence
[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-27 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Part of my approach to Liber Legis is to take it as the "resurrection body" of the Law. The original divinely-sanctioned Law of proscription and prohibition died under the formula which equated divinity and the death-spasm. Liber AL is a document which serves to affirm "that which remains," the reality transcending soldiers and hunchbacks alike, which is the worshipper himself in those spiritual conditions under which "the body becomes all time, the beloved all space." (Deus est homo. See CCXX II:8-9, and Crowley's commentary thereto.)

Selections from another such document:

Where man is not, nature is barren.

...men forgot that All deities reside in the human breast.

I have also: The Bible of Hell: which the world shall have whether they will or no.

One Law for the Lion & Ox is Oppression.

Wm. Blake
The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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Re: a periphery of my pestilence
[info]ecosystem
2003-03-27 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Part of my approach to Liber Legis is to take it as the "resurrection body" of the Law. The original divinely-sanctioned Law of proscription and prohibition died under the formula which equated divinity and the death-spasm.

A lot of this makes sense to me, and I particularly appreciate the illustration via Nietzsche. One thing I'm unclear on is exactly how you are using the "resurrection body" metaphor. I'm assuming you view the Aeon of Horus as an age in which each individual human will dictates the values and morals for its own system, and in which "law" has no meaning except in the self's responsibility to the self. Why are you referring to Liber Legis' replacement of a death-based system of morality in the language of the Aeon of Osiris ("resurrection")? Hasn't the birth-death-resurrection image lost its potency?

I ask this partially because I've just started working on understanding the FIAOF formula, and yet I keep finding things described in IAO format wherever I turn. Despite exposing what I consider definite "Aeon of Horus" concepts, even the camel-lion-child transformation in Zarathustra seems to line up in formula to IAO.

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Re: a periphery of my pestilence
[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-28 05:31 am UTC (link)
  • Isis = Birth
  • Osiris = Death
  • Horus = Resurrection
The "old formula" is not invalidated by the new. It is the more restricted special case of the new formula. C.f. the relationship between Newtonian and relativistic physics. "In the New Aeon" (i.e. under the mythic rubric of Thelema), IAO is still (like Newtonian physics) the formula most suited to typical household projects. But the new, more general principles of Thelema permit the old formula to be employed in iterative cycles (FIAOF) and even in reverse (OAI)!

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FIAOF
[info]ecosystem
2003-03-28 11:32 am UTC (link)
Oh! I see what you're saying. Do you consider the only difference between IAO and FIAOF to be the fact that IAO is a one-time affair and FIAOF is cyclical? From Chapter 5 in MTP, it seems like Crowley is also making a substantive distinction between the roles of the I, A, and O in each formula. For example, under "Aeon of Osiris" the destructive "A" is definitively female (the "Evil Mother" of Freud), where under "Aeon of Horus" the "A" stage is a gestation process more than an annihilation process (Alpha is the Babe "who has formulated his Father, and made fertile his Mother" --- Harpocrates, etc., as before; but he develops to...), and it contains both sexes. I agree, of course, with your assignment of Isis = Birth, Osiris = Death, Horus = Resurrection, but it seems to me that there really is a difference in process between IAO and FIAOF.

Why is Chapter 2 of Liber Legis a death as opposed to a gestation. Is Chapter 2 of Liber Legis a death as opposed to a gestation? Is Liber Legis the last great bellow of the non-cyclical IAO formula, or does the process of law/value-creation --> law/value-annihilation --> amoral-triumph eventually condense back into the world as the beginning of a new stage of law/value-creation?

Can you give me an example of OAI?

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Re: FIAOF
[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-28 12:31 pm UTC (link)
the roles of the I, A, and O in each formula
...are subject to various readings and manipulations at an even higher level. See the first footnote of that chapter, which begins, "There is a quite different formula...." (I also reflected on that footnote recently here.) The distinction that you cite has to do with how "IAF varies in significance with successive Aeons." The addition of the initial digamma (and penultimate omicron) in the Thelemic regimen has the following further effects:
  • It gives the formula the isosephic sum value of 93, tying it to thelema and agape.
  • It makes the cyclical application of the formula more apparent.
  • It permits the construction of a yosher in which the digammas at the extremes represent spirit as wings, as compared with the Hebrew Pentagrammaton yosher with shin as a crown.
    Why is Chapter 2 of Liber Legis a death...?
    Did I say it was? Not that I'm denying the idea. I didn't think I'd gotten so pestilential! Still, it's as easy to see Apep in II:26 as it is to see Isis in I:22. And I don't read "gestation" per se anywhere, but "death" is written fourteen times in the second chapter.

    Liber Stellae Rubeae is the prime scriptural reference for OAI ... and for IAO-OAI.

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Re: FIAOF
[info]ecosystem
2003-03-28 03:03 pm UTC (link)
Still, it's as easy to see Apep in II:26 as it is to see Isis in I:22. And I don't read "gestation" per se anywhere, but "death" is written fourteen times in the second chapter.

No, I agree with you. What I meant was not "why might Chapter 2 be assigned to death?" but "what was the author's intent in expressing Chapter 2 through images of death?" I was operating under the assumption that FIAOF was going to take the place of IAO in the "new Aeon," and thus, the movement through chapters of Liber Legis would display an FIAOF process rather than an IAO process. Since (at least from what I understand of MTP) the "A" stage of FIAOF is not death-as-such but some kind of hermaphroditic cuccoon state, I wondered why Chapter 2 of Liber Legis didn't get written with that kind of imagery instead. I suppose the answer is just that Crowley figured out the FIAOF formula well after 1904, and it doesn't necessarily map back onto Liber Legis retroactively. Square peg, round hole?

As far as the idea of "Law" goes (our original subject!), do you prefer a process of law/value-creation --> law/value-annihilation --> amoral-triumph that leads to a new stage of law/value-creation for the self (FIAOF) or do you prefer to end up floating about triumphant without values (IAO)? In this case, the difference in the two formulas seems to be the difference between existentialism and nihilism.

It permits the construction of a yosher in which the digammas at the extremes represent spirit as wings, as compared with the Hebrew Pentagrammaton yosher with shin as a crown.

This just got over my head. What is yosher (other than a Hebrew word meaning "straight line" and "honesty"), what is its significance, and what are the two spellings?

Thanks for the link to Liber Stellae Rubeae - quite a brainful!

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Re: FIAOF
[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-28 04:03 pm UTC (link)
the author's intent ... The author function is very problematic in a text of this type. Intent? Heck, I don't even know to whom I would attach the intent. The three Speakers of the chapters? Crowley? Aiwass? Rose?

I don't follow your attribution of "to end up floating about triumphant without values" to IAO (as contrasted to FIAOF). I also don't see any needful conflict between "law/value-creation for the self" (although your italics here are a little intimidating) and nihilism as I understand it.

I do take Law and morality to be contervailing forces that alternate with and punctuate one another, like soldiers and hunchbacks.

Sorry about the opacity of the yosher reference. I was trying to radically condense a fairly idiosyncratic piece of magical letter-play. I'll post it soon at more relaxed length in my own journal.

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Nihilism vs. Existentialism / IAO vs. FIAOF
[info]ecosystem
2003-03-28 06:27 pm UTC (link)
I also don't see any needful conflict between "law/value-creation for the self" (although your italics here are a little intimidating) and nihilism as I understand it.

I'll tell my italics to stand down.

Time to define my terms! I'm using "nihilism" to refer to a complete lack of values (in the same sense that aporia is a state of total epistemological uncertainty). I'm using "existentialism" to refer to the belief that values are arbitrary, coupled with the action of creating a system of values for oneself. Similar to the way you consider FIAOF to be a specialized form of IAO, I consider "existentialism" to be a specialized form of "nihilism." Both start with the idea that there are no inherent values or morals. An existentialist makes some up; a nihilist doesn't. I italicized self, not to be an html-tag-bully, but to emphasize the idea that the "I" step in the second cycle of FIAOFIAOF would be the birth of a set of values for which the scope of authority is one individual, not an entire society.

So (and we'll see if this holds up), in the IAO formula, the "I" would be the creation of a common morality for all people, the "A" would be the destruction of that morality, and the "O" would be the rise of an amoral society. In the FIAOF formula, this process would continue past that point into "I" the birth of a system of morals and values within an individual. I suppose it's also possible to make that individual morality/value-system rise in the individual as part of the "O" in IAO, but FIAOF seems to be a better reflection of the way in which a creative individual progresses through cycles of reinventing her moral universe.

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Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism / IAO vs. FIAOF
[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-28 07:45 pm UTC (link)
I think you are using "morality" interchangably with "Law," as the thing born, slain, and resurrected. I am using "morality" as the sentimental force that displaces and kills "Law." "Values" are a sort of allegiance that can be directed towards morality, Law, or something else. Nietzsche's Wills (not only to Power, but to Knowledge, and perhaps others as well) could be read as an attempt to assert values that would overcome morality, just as morality had overcome Law. Thelema identifies that morality-overcoming Will with a resurrected Law: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

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Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism / IAO vs. FIAOF
[info]ecosystem
2003-03-28 10:40 pm UTC (link)
That is fascinating. I am definitely going to give a lot of thought to that analysis.

What point in history (if any) do you associate with the slaying of law by morality?

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[info]paradoxosalpha
2003-03-29 07:17 am UTC (link)
In the Isis-Osiris-Horus model, the entire Osiris phase represents the slaying of Law by morality. While Crowley (and Nietzsche) presented this process as an historical metanarrative, I tend to see it more as a formula that is iterated at various scales in societies and individuals. The global application to a unified history appears to be a myth to me. (I don't devalue myth, but I don't confuse it with attempts at objective history either.)

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Re:
[info]ecosystem
2003-03-29 11:08 am UTC (link)
Got it.

This conversation has been extremely helpful. Effusive thanks once again!

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[info]synesis
2003-03-27 01:30 am UTC (link)
According to his journal from the time when he received that rapid-fire burst of Class A texts over a few months, he simply heard the voice and it gave him dictation.


"The only analogy is that of a noble thinker and his stupid, dishonest, and immoral secretary. The dictation is taken down correctly, and given to the world. The last person to be enlightened by it is the secretary himself! So, I take it, is the case with all genius."
-- Crowley, Moonchild

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[info]lassiter
2003-03-27 11:23 am UTC (link)

The illusion of self is a product of neurological narrative, in which a massively parallel system creates a story about a unitary character that does not exist.

Oh, great. NOW you've done it. Um, er, move along folks. Nothing to see here. Pay no attention to that set of uncollapsed vectors behind the curtain.

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[info]muelos
2003-03-28 08:56 am UTC (link)
The term "Thelemite" would seem to be one that requires some footnoting. Perhaps "Rabelaisian Thelemite" would be a useful term for Thelemites who prefer the model of Rabelais to that of Crowley. Then again, perhaps we could really muck things up with such terms as "Maroneyan Thelemite" or "Muelosian Thelemite." I've never heard a very satisfactory definition of "Thelemite" anyway. It's not like people who so identify themselves all vote the same way, or feel the same way about war, or drugs, or family, etc. etc.

All concepts of selfhood are illusory, as per Hume. The illusion of self is a product of neurological narrative, in which a massively parallel system creates a story about a unitary character that does not exist.

Is this "massively parallel system" also an illusion?

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